Discussion: Advertising in Education

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Discussion Archive 2

John, I think asking 'why should the dept provide computers' is quite an astounding question.Perhaps because computers and the internet, as the largest resources of information on the planet, is a vital component of modern education. And seems as how the department of education presides over education, it is their function to provide adequate resources for a decent education. It is in the interest of society to educate our children on how to use this resource to the best effect. Not to sound snotty, but do you genuinely believe the commercial sector is looking out for the best interest of children/education?you must admit that their involvement in education has massive potential for abuse?

Why should the Dept of Education provide the computers?

What is wrong with these schemes? It's how teachers deal with it in the classroom.

I think it's great what Tescos and others are doing, ensuring our kids are getting needed resources

Sure look at what the Dept do - hand out computers (IT 2000) but provide no training, look at the joke that is the broadband scheme. If this was done commercially it would have been handled better

Saw you on the news, and finally checked out the site. Well done guys, keep up the good work. I'll definitely bring this up at our next staff meeting. And now I'm armed with all the the facts and figures, thanks.

Delighted to see someone is finally saying no to this ridiculous situation. I am sick of collecting tokens every morning, I would love it if my school said no these schemes. Its about time we got our computers from a proper source, ie. the Dept of Education and Science!!

pat - what quotation marks? what are you talking about???

You said - you went to exceptional lengths to explain that dcc is not paying for it, but rather it comes from taxpayers money

I didn't!!! I never mentioned any such thing! I've checked back through the comments, I suggest you do the same!

to niall- there's nothing bogus in computer software being offered. to step- check back throught the arguments - and note the quotation marks around step!

I just wanted to add a point on tesco's 'computers for schools scheme', students cannot collect vouchers on tesco grounds. I phoned up to see if this is company policy and it is. In other words, you can't collect those tokens because those people are already shopping in Tesco - what we want you to do is to encourage other people who perhaps shop elsewhere to come to our stores. The schoolchildren are effectively turned into Tesco promoters.

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Although it isn't listed as an Argument Against Commercialism, a principal of a midlands town pointed out to me that he'd given up on the Tesco scheme after local traders contacted him. They explained that the scheme was diverting trade to Tesco in the town 10 miles away and wanted to make the school aware of this.

Further evidence of the flaws in commercial resourcing of the Irish ed. system. Sonia and Ray don't have anything to say about sending money out of the locality to big supermarket multiples.

Sorry Mary, I'm not usually offensive, I just wanted to use lurkers own tactics against him.

I'd disagree about a different type of forum though, if people needed to register before they could comment, most wouldn't bother - all forums have their fair share of people stirring it up just for the sake of it, unfortunately it goes with the territory, best way to deal with it is to pat them gently on the head and give them a sweetie :) And besides what would gilly do the next time s/he wanted to change her name and agree with herself/himself ;)

Point taken Mary - it was felt that due to the abject lack of discussion around this topic in Ireland it was best to initially host a free, open discussion. Such a facility is open to abuse and we'll keep a close eye on things.

But to return to the point - how can companies run celebrity-led ads, issue target charts and collection boxes for young children and then accuse schools of pressurising people into buying their goods. Wasn't that the whole point of these exploitative, marketing initiatives?

Ok let's put a stop to this

Lurker, don't offend the profession John, don't offend the lurker

Moderator why can't we get a proper forum here, such as phpBB or even a free one, this will cut down on the rude, ignorant posts by outsiders

Get a life?? the people here are trying to do something positive, you on the other hand are making repeat visits to a site you care nothing about - which one needs to get a life??

I bet you're a big hit with all the ladies with your witless pedantry - You see, its very easy to make insubstantiated jibes from the safety and annonymity of the internet - to do so says more about you than it does about your target.

And in response to your (u)only(/u) valid point - yes I'm sure the people here are disappointed with their unions stance, they should table a motion or go to congress - Oh wait, that's exactly what they are doing!!

as you can see i did mention about your union supporting the Indo scheme

so is your union not encouraging commericalism

Sorry Lurker, basic sign of someone who cannot engage in a grown up debate with others that you pull out a cheap slight about the abilities of teachers instead of taking up the issue we are talking about- a true sign you cant take on the argument. I'd gladly debate the other issues with you- another place, another time, but right now if you hadnt noticed is on commercialism- stick to the topic.

Well moderator, a lot of teachers out there need training!

Perhaps there should be a campaign for getting bench marking and professionalism into teaching

but of course then too many will be exposed

oh by the way interesting that your union support the indo scheme

get a life guys, as they say those who can do those how can't teach

What struck me about the statement from the Independent newspapers marketing lady on the news yesterday was her blaming of schools for any commercial pressure arising from their scheme.

This is remarkable hypocrisy!

The same companies who set token quotas and voucher targets then have the temerity to accuse schools of pressurising students and parents on their behalf. Perhaps Ind. would like to train teachers how to better implement their exploitative scheme.

Everyone loves to beat a dead horse, so here we go:

Just because a state body uses tax money to buy something doesn't mean that the tax payer (e.g. you and me) are the consumer of what the state body purchases.

Otherwise, when a company purchased something, their customer would be the consumer and if I purchased something my employer would be the consumer. Life doesn't work that way.

Taxes may be our money but we can't have it back and we don't decide how it's spent. We elect political folk to spend it (and they love to spend). ;-)

once again someone who can't read! Please look at my points again and tell me exactly where I mentioned the tax payer! You can't, because I didn't!

Sorry Pat but your misrepresenting the argument. An opposition to commercialism by the campaign is opposition to commercial schemes/initatives which serve to advertise and market a product. The pencils the chidlren use, the pencil cases the use the books they use all will have a logo (of the publsher int he case of books) on them. Point is that with the schemes- tesco etc- the companies set out to consciously place the brand on front of the child through bogus educational material.

totally agree with gilly and peter. to step- stop contradicting yourself. in your last point yo refer to DCC as the consumer- ie the person who pays for the product. in a previous message you went to exceptional lengths to explain that dcc is not paying for it, but rather it comes from taxpayers money. if you are actually against commercialism in the classroom you wouldnt be supporting any brand names in the school. and dont try to say that e.g avonmore get nothing out of this. dont sit on the fence. argue for or against commercialism in ther classroom

Just saw your campaign on RTE news. Very interested. People should get on to their unions- like the INTO- and make their view known- I'm disgusted at this going on.

Step

I think Peter was making a point, this whole thing can get out of hand. By supplying branded milk, the CC are putting brands into the classroom

Perhaps your personal dress should not have been brought up, however, it was interesting that this was discussed on the radio today!

Anyway back to the real debate!

Where do I start??? 1. I never said that I wear my Levis and Adidas, I said I wouldn't be able to. Furthermore, what I wear is none of your business. I never said the best price, I said the best product at the best price. There's an important difference there.

Please ensure you actually read something before you comment on it in future!

2. The consumer is the person or agency that pays for a product - therefore DCC is the consumer. (I think you might be confused with the other meaning of the word - to eat or drink)

As for wording something correctly, take a look at your second paragraph, it needs a bit of work.

I eagerly await your response.

Step

Not very professional dress Levis Jeans and an adidas top,

Oh by the Step, you know that the best price is chosen, you have evidence to back up that statement, after all county councils would always make sure the best price tender is chosen,

and you were saying something about the real world.

Btw DDC are not the consumer, they would be seen as the supplier. The consumer in this case are the school children. Please ensure your statements are worded correctly in future

Peter, to use such a hyperbolic argument is plainly absurd, to follow your line of thinking to its logical conclusion I wouldn't be able wear my Levis jeans and Adidas top to school, or let them use crayola crayons. Here's how it works in the real world- 1. It is decided free milk will be provided 2. A contract is put out to tender 3. The best product at the best price is chosen and given the contract 4 If a better product becomes available DCC are free to choose to change suppliers The entire enterprise is intiated, run and controlled by the consumer, not the producer as is the case for Tesco tokens or Building for the future for example

Niall, I agree with Gilly

the fact is avonmore got the business, that brand is being brought into the classroom, thus the message that is portrayed is that avonmore are sponsoring the milk, therefore avonmore win

i am sure avonmore got something from the council for this, if the council want to provide free milk, i am sure they could white label it somehow

fact is the brand is in the classroom, parents and kids will see the brand, think the brand is good, buy the brand and make more profits for avonmore

perhaps you're not sure which side of the line you stand on, after all you can not deny it is commericialism in the classroom which this campaign wants to get rid of

If anyone has a copy of the Issues magazine published recently which deals with drugs and features a sponsored front cover, please get in touch with the campaign. Hopefully we can get a copy to review for the site.

The fact is the debate began on a mistruth that Avonmore provided the milk free- which is untrue! I believe that there is no thin line the line is rather thick- a large deep trench infact between commercialism on the one hand and free milk provided for by the state through DCC. That line is quite clearly defined throughout the website in arguments against commercialism section and the curriculum guidelines. The campaign is rightfully raising major questions for society and how we value education. I'm delighted that you and others are engaging in this debate.

niall you seem very extremely defensive.. nobody has set out to make the campaign look unreasonable.. and it's certainly not unreasonable to put a question out there on a discussion board. discussing brand names in the classroom is not far removed from commercialism, in fact it's quite central. your point is taken of course, but u have to question where a thin line lies

Sorry its not a question of whether it suits me or not. Dublin City Council receives funding from public taxes, is a democratically elected body, whose purpose is to provide, in this case, free milk for schoolchildren. Unless Dublin City Council milk their own cows and package it themselves, they must source it somewhere. (J)Gilly began by trying to make the campaign look unreasonable- at this stage you are the only one looking unreasonable. DCC providing free milk is as far removed from commercialism as you can get- in fact is the opposite- its public money being put to good use in my view. As opposed to private capital trying to exploit schools to make even bigger profits.

niall, you either want brand/company names out of schools or not?? surely not just when it suits you...........

Free school milk from avonmore??? Should we get rid of that too? Just to correct you Jilly- The milk is free from Dublin City Council- a public body- a non-profit making body not from Avonmore. Dublin City Council obviously buy it from Avonmore. So no I wouldnt have a problem with that- infact I wish there was more and better foods available free to chidlren coming from city council funding. The provision of free milk from Dublin City Council is not a commercial venture- but a public service

just wondering what people's views are on free school milk from avonmore???!should we get rid of that too...........

Teacher representatives have, this week, been strongly critical of the content of ISSUES published by Carroll-Dillon. Sponsors pay E250 to have their names printed on the front page of 30 copies of the handbook which is then distributed free to schools.

The book contains bizarre and explicit information on illegal drugs including heroin and ecstasy. John Carr said - it was totally inappropriate for schoolchildren...there is no need for a privately sponsored book of this nature.

Couldnt agree with you more Susan- your right to make the link with government underfunding- we should call halt and thats what people seem to be doing here- you cant knock people for trying to make a stand and encouraging others to do so. How was free public education won by in the first place anyway, but by people demanding it- probably when others were saying the government would never fund free primary education for children. The point is therefore we need to campaign for increased funding and get rid of the need for the commercial schemes.

our school is in need of resources as any other...but you just have to call a halt as you said yourself. but lets face it, it doesnt look like were getting the funding from the department very soon, so it the meantime, we shoould be thankful of schemes like this and present them careflully to our classes.. you cant blame tesco etc for this-only our own employer.

I agree James, I think the central issues are being overlooked because a lot of people have an 'Oh, just get over it' attitude which facilitates the system. To further back up your point about under-funding; the 2005 Operation for Economic Co-Operation and Development report said Ireland is the 2nd richest country in the world. It also put Ireland 21st out of 27 EU countries surveyed when it comes to school funding. It also said that Ireland's spending on primary and secondary education is way below its GDP.

Schools are underfunded & the funding is substituted by companies- exploiting teachers and children. I have lots to get on with too but you have to call halt sometime! Sorry but the idea that there is not pressure on teachers to & on children to collect tokens is not the reality everywhere, Susan. In my school there was huge pressure and schools advertising in local papers for tokens- huge panic almost from school desperate to have decent resources. Disgusts me that schools do all the running + Tesco are laughing all the way to the bank. Also disgusted that Susan could see this occuring in a wealthy country + yet stand back and tell other teachers to as good as get over it

what is the problem with the tesco tokens?? tell the kids there's no pressure, if they shop there great, if they dont, no pressure. it seems to me some of these teachers are putting a huge amount of pressure on their pupils. i'm a teacher. my class is aware of the scheme but i dont waste time on it, i get on with my work, so should you.....

For anyone in the North East region; Tuesday 28th March - Navan Education Centre, Co. Meath 7.30pm. All welcome.

Hi guys I just attended the Information meeting in Drumcondra tonight. I found it really insightful and would highly recommend if you can at all to go along to one tomorrow. Its well worth it.

Open invitation to all posters to attend the information meetings in Drumcondra Ed. Centre Tuesday night 21st at 7.30 or Blackrock Ed. Centre on Wednesday night 22nd at same time.

It will be a good opportunity to see the actual commercial material and discuss how best schools may respond.

From - A Tale of Two Tech Policies, Irish Times Fri. 17 March. (John Collins)

Teachers feel angry that, since 2002 abnd the culmination of the last strategy and funding programme, IT 2000, which pumped more that E50 million worth of technology and services into schools, the department has not even had an IT strategy document....

Barely a hundred miles from where we are sitting today, there are 350,000 pupils and teachers using the most advanced e-learning network in the world says Martin Murphy, managing director of HP Ireland. When you come back down here, we don't have a strucutred approach to arriving at a similar set-up....

You can't build a knowledge economy on the back of cake sales and goodwill. There has to be a structured approach to it.

Robbie O Leary puts it more starkly. Some schools in the country have had more support from Tesco than the Government, he says, referring to the Tesco Computers for Schools programme.

In the four years since IT 2000 came to an end, the main funding for schools has been E18 million for networking and E20 million for broadband, put his presents its own challenges according to the teachers. There's been no money for PCs, software or maintenance in that time, says O Leary. So you have broadband coming into an infrastructure that is out of date. It's farcical.

here's a great one from the tesco site: Why not use vouchers for counting practice in Maths classes or to keep children occupied during wet playtimes.

Step, thank you for seeing thru my comments, at least there's one person with a bit of humour left here ! :)

ha ha, very good Paddy, maybe I should spend my Saturdays stacking shelves in the local Tesco too, maybe they will give the school an extra mouse mat or two :) Moderator, Niall and Sue, I think Paddy is just taking the piss, no need to get all defensive - we don't want to make this discussion totally sterile - he did use a smiley face after all :p

Moderator, perhaps we need to use a forum where people need to sign up as the other danger is that people will post as another poster?Comments

Sorry Paddy, but its obvious by your last comment that your issue seems to be more anti-teacher than anything else. Unfortunately if you want take up that issue there are other fora for that. This thread is supposed to debate the issues of commercialism not the holiday conditions of teachers.

Yes Paddy, the facts are interesting. So please stick to them.